MSPs, Contracts & Chaos: Brad Gross at Pax8 Beyond (EP 841)

Hello friends, Uncle Marv here with a special edition of the IT Business Podcast. This is going to be a before and after of the PAX8 BEYOND show that was just out in Denver, Colorado while I was there and the way that you hear this will be out of order. So, let me explain.

While in Denver, my very first podcast interview was with my good friend Brad Gross and we had some technical difficulties. So, we are back because I still wanted him to be the very first podcast that you hear from PAX8. We're doing it after the show, so we're going to add in some little post-show comments of our experiences there. My apologies to Mr. Gross for not having that live ambience there from Radio Row, but he's agreed to come back, so Brad, welcome.

Thank you, Marv. You never have to apologize for anything about this podcast, it is that awesome. If I can appear on it more than once inside of a 10-day period, count me in.

All right. All right. So, before we start, let me say thank you to my partners.

First of all, PAX8 for allowing me to attend once again as a person of the media and then I need to say thank you to the partners that helped with travel there. LionGuard was my gear sponsor and they helped me pack all the stuff, have the Rodecaster gear with me, and then Bvoip and TruGrid are my travel partners, so that helps cover some of the expenses of getting back and forth, so I want to say thank you to them. Also, a very special thank you to RYTHMz.

Normally, when we are on-site, on-premise, the internet is provided so that the IT Business Podcast is powered by RYTHMz, but didn't have that happen either. So, what a great event. But thank you to the partners anyway.

So, Brad, let's go back and try to recreate what we did while we were there. I believe one of the first things I... I'll start off by saying, it's really good to be here in Denver, and we'll go from there. If I remember, one of the first things I said is, you're there as an exhibitor.

You had a booth. For the first time ever. Yeah.

It was crazy. What I learned from having a booth, because now I have a platform that we launched, MSP Terms, so we had a booth, not just for the law firm, but for MSP Terms, sort of a dual booth for dual purposes, and I learned a lot of things by being an exhibitor. First, it is exhausting.

So, any of you who are listening who have ever exhibited at one of these conferences, I understand. I understand how, at the end of the conference, you just want to go and lay in the bed and look up at the ceiling and think about life. It's exhausting.

But it's also exhilarating. You know, you have people coming in, you're fielding questions from everyone about lots of different issues. So it was the bane of my existence, and it was an awesome experience at the same time.

Yeah. So, being there, in a sense, limited to the booth, I know that you like to... You like to get around, you like to mingle, you like to shine, and it's tough doing that. So next time, are you going to have people there at the booth for you so you can go out and do that and don't take care of the questions? So you learn things, right? As you do a booth.

I had one person there with me, so it was me and one of my colleagues. Yes, I think that next time, I would definitely choose to have two people there so I cannot be tethered. So I wouldn't have had to have been tethered to the booth as much as I was.

That said, you know, everything is a cost-benefit, and it's expensive to bring more and more people in, not just because of what they charge, but hotel and airfare and so on. So the next few weeks are really going to be, again, if you've ever exhibited, not you, Mark, but anyone listening, you understand that the following few weeks, now you look to the return on the investment, what you're making, and so forth, to see what makes sense for the next time you do it. Yeah.

Yeah. So let's go ahead, and for people that, I don't know how, but if there are people listening who don't know you and don't know what you bring to the channel, we should tell everybody you are a technology lawyer specializing in MSP agreements, statement of work, liability terms. You have been the lawyer to MSPs for quite some time, and you have just recently launched MSP terms, which we can now do contracting as a service in the clouds with document management.

Does that sound right? It's very close, yes. So you're right. I have been practicing in this area longer than any attorney that I've ever heard of.

I'm now in my 25th year of representing MSPs, back when they were called ASPs is when I started. So, yeah, about two years ago, I said it's time to come out with a service that will fill a need in the industry, and the result was MSP terms. It is a document management platform in the cloud that allows you to create, edit, sign, and share documents in a private, non-indexable, non-public manner, so that only the people who have the credentials that you give to them will see those documents.

It allows MSPs to track and log what their customers are doing with their documents. It guarantees MSP customers document immutability, meaning they have guarantees that the MSP will not and cannot change a document after they've already accepted it or viewed it. And then we have a library of soon to be 20, right now 18, 20 templates that I have created from the ground up.

So it's been very well received, and I'm excited about it. Yeah. I remember the one feature that you brought up was bi-directional e-signature functionality, which obviously is something that we need.

The ability to have those signed is huge. Tracking is huge. You mentioned, I think it was geo-tracking? Yeah.

Well, when your customers do anything with your documents, when they access them, when they view them, when they accept them, everything that they do is logged and tracked through IP tracking. So we can track exactly where the IP is coming from. We have their address there just to log in and see your documents.

They have MFA, so you know that the customer whom you're dealing with is the person who you want to see your documents. So the management, the document management end of the platform is something that has never really been presented in a single cohesive solution, right? There's e-signature solutions out there. There are a lot of them.

Is there tracking of documents? It could be. Is there offering them in a credentialed, private, non-indexable location? Is that possible? You see, you start adding all these things together. That's what MSP Terms is.

It's bringing together lots of solutions into a single solution. Right. Another thing that we chatted, and I just remember from notes, you mentioned the fact that your site is compliant with the new FTC rules regarding auto renewals.

And that was something we chatted about because, well, first, let's talk about what the FTC ruled on. I'll give you the two big points that MSPs need to know about the new FTC rule. There are two big points.

First, and what it applies to. First things first. It applies to any contract that auto renewal renews or is a continuity contract.

So an auto renewal is just what you think about. This contract goes for a year, unless we give each other notice, let's say 30 or 60 days before the end of it, it automatically renews. That's an auto renewal.

Continuity is a contract that says this agreement starts on this date and just continues until one of us terminates. So it applies to those types of contracts. It applies to all business to business transactions, which involves 99.9% of the transactions that MSPs do.

Right. Not business to consumer. It applies business to consumer, but MSPs do B2B, not so much B2C.

And what it says, the two big points are A, from now on, you have to make it very clear at the time of contracting that you are, that your customers entering into either a continuity or an auto renewal agreement. So it used to be, let's say on your quote, you could say term 12 months auto renews or something like this. And you know, you could get away with it.

Now you can't. Now the FTC is saying it has to be clear, specific, and conspicuous. So we have to take some time, some pain to, you know, great, not great pains, but a little bit to make sure that your agreements are updated accordingly.

The second aspect of it is that it says that a customer, okay, a customer or the party who is accepting the auto renewal agreement has to be given the option to get out of auto renewal in a method that is as simple as the method that is used for them to enter into the agreement. Okay. So it has to be as simple as the method used to enter into it.

So what do we mean? Well, if we enter into an agreement electronically, digital signature and so forth, your agreement can no longer say this agreement will auto renew unless you send us a written letter by courier or by FedEx at least 30 days before so forth. Why? Because written letter and courier is a lot harder than the method that we use to enter into it. Electronics, right? Electronically.

So what we have done on the platform is we have, among other features, not only have we implemented an auto renewal reminder feature so you can clearly and conspicuously remind your customers about auto renewal, but we've actually given them a single click option to get out of auto renewal, not terminate the agreement, but give notice to the MSP that they don't want this auto renewal to continue and that complies with FTC law. And let me ask you how that pertains to MSP slash vendor agreements because I'm not going to try to offend any vendors here, but I know that it's probably going to be taken that way. One of the biggest complaints in our industry is that MSPs find it absolutely ridiculously hard to get out of agreements.

Just like you mentioned, a lot of times you have to talk to your rep and then you try to talk to your rep and your rep never returns the calls. Or you didn't read the line where it says, well, it has to be done 90 days or 120 days by the 12.01 AM of a certain date, that sort of a thing. So is this also going to apply to those agreements? Yes.

Those days are what you just described will now be coming to an end. It applies to all business to business transactions, which includes obviously vendor to MSP. That's business to business as well.

And you are correct. Without prosecuting any particular vendor, because many, many are guilty of it, right? The fact is, is that a common complaint from MSPs is the only way to terminate or get out of the auto renewal is I have to make a call to the rep. I have to talk to the rep.

They talk to somebody and then they let me know. But if I don't get to my rep in time because he doesn't answer or she doesn't answer the phone, it auto renewed. I agree with you.

That is a common problem. Those days are over as of May 14th, 2025. I don't think I've ever asked you this particular question, but do you find yourself stuck in the middle of MSPs and vendors? Sometimes.

OK. Generally speaking, you know, I and it is one of the issues that I face as, you know, an attorney that represents thousands of MSPs, that sometimes you'll get into conflicts between MSPs in which you actually find yourself on both sides of it. Right.

But you have to avoid that. But it turns out one is out feuding with another or you find yourself involved with an MSP that is having a dispute with a vendor that either I have represented or I have done, let's say, educational work for, you know, as a speaker and so on. And that is a difficult thing.

But at the end of the day, ethics are ethics. So I will usually, unless for some reason the two sides say, no, we want you to stay in this matter and mediate what's going on, which happens, usually just have to back out back out of both of them. Yes, it does happen.

You can't. I can't honestly say that I have represented more MSPs than all lawyers, but say, but there's never a conflict. Of course there is.

You have to handle them on a case by case basis. Right. Yeah.

On the other side of that coin, I know that I've reached out to you, you know, on occasion to talk about the increasing number of lawsuits where clients are now suing their managed service provider. There's actually been a couple of more and stuff. Without getting into specifics or mentioning those, your thoughts on the fact that it is now acceptable for clients to push back, even if the MSP had an agreement in place and say, you're still liable.

Yeah. Well, ultimately the customers of MSPs, they don't want to point the finger at themselves. And they also, and this goes to the heart of what a lot of these issues are about, they also don't always understand the scope or the limitations of what the MSP is providing or facilitating for them.

So as a result, if anything goes wrong, they look to the MSP and they say, this has to be on you. Right. It has to be.

I mean, you're in, you're in control. And it's usually the result, almost always, I should say, the result of a mismanaged expectation. So given that MSPs historically have not been good at managing their customers' expectations, you are right.

As MSPs and their services become more ubiquitous and things are happening, customers are turning around pointing the finger at MSPs because there's a mismanaged expectation. So it's happening more and more. All right.

And that's going to make it even more critical that we have something like MSP terms up and running where, first of all, the agreements are there. Right. You have to have them.

Service guides, descriptions of what you do, how you do it, what you don't do and so forth. Yeah, that's what it's about. It's about serving the industry as this industry evolves into a more robust and ubiquitous place.

All right. So now that we have finished with Pax8 Beyond, what are your afterthoughts? My afterthoughts are, first of all, that every year, and I've been there now every year, I think this was the third one, yes, I've been to all three. Each year it gets better and bigger, which is good because sometimes, you know, these shows take a turn and you're like, wow, they shouldn't have gone in that direction.

They're progressing in a very, very great way. I thought the venue was fantastic. If I had any constructive criticism at all, and it didn't have to do with the logistics of the show, it was fantastic.

I would love to see a lot more meat and potatoes kind of stuff, even more breakouts than they had. Right. That's my criticism.

You didn't have enough breakouts, right? Not that you didn't have great breakouts. I want to even see more, more about educational, more about hands-on meat and potatoes kind of stuff that MSPs need. But you know what? That's what these conferences do.

Every year they progress and they add on and they see what's needed. So I have high hopes for season four of the Beyond show that they will expand their breakouts and their workshops to include even more education. I love that criticism as much as I think they should make it even bigger.

Well, let's see if you agree with the fact that season four will now be in Salt Lake City. I know. I heard that.

I heard that they're not doing the Gaylord in Denver. That's an interesting one because I don't claim to have any superior knowledge or even any rudimentary knowledge about marketing these monster shows and where they should be and so on. But I would think that people sort of get used to a big show like that being in the same place they look forward to.

It's like every year I'm going to go to Denver in June or whatever it is and switch it to Salt Lake City. I'm sure there are smarter people than I, you know, than me that know why they're doing it. It'll be interesting to see, you know, is that going to affect membership or affect attendance in any way? I know of at least one vendor that switched from Northeast to Southeast and went back to the Northeast.

Why? Because that switch didn't sit well with attendees. I'll be interested to see what happens with Beyond. Yeah, it'll be interesting.

And I'll say this, the mountains themselves are not a draw for me, which was one of the reasons. No, why not? I'm not a mountain guy. Yeah, but it's nice to get away and see the mountains.

I mean, in Florida, you're long, hot and flat. That's what everyone says about Florida, long, hot and flat. Yeah, well, it's easy to see a mountain now and then.

It's easy. Speaking of mountains, you had some fun pre-PACS 8 with your mountain adventures. Yes, I did.

How are you healing up? I'm healing well. Yes, for those of you who don't know, a couple of days before the event, I went 4x4ing with a friend of mine, very experienced, actually, 4x4ing. I think it's a 4x4, right? It has a steel cage, almost looks like a dune buggy.

It climbs mountains. Literally, it climbs rocks. It's this crazy machine.

And well, so I was going a little too fast, made a very quick turn, and the laws of physics took over. So between the harness and the steel cage and my helmet, I was fine with a couple of just bruises on my side and a sprained bicep. But other than that, I walked away from it and actually had six or seven other bikers who saw it came running over, you okay? They helped flip the thing over and then I took it for a ride for another hour in the mountains.

So was that strained bicep from pushing the four-wheeler away from the ground so you'd have space? No, I think it was more of as the thing was going over and I sort of grabbed on to whatever was near me in my panic. And yes, did I. I mean, first time you ever flip over like that, I admit, I'm not Batman here. I grabbed on like, what? And I think I pulled it at that point, but literally, I walked away.

And I will say that anybody who does, and here we're going to do a quick public service announcement. If you're doing these types of things, it's inherently dangerous. Okay? It is.

It's just inherently. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do them, but there's an inherent danger. And anyone who doesn't wear a helmet and gear is just stupid.

Literally, they're just stupid because things can happen as they did to me. You know, had the steel cage, had the helmet, okay. But you know, things happen.

And I saw a lot of people out there on the trail going in like shorts, sunglasses, and a baseball hat. That's nuts. That's nuts.

So if you're listening, don't do that. So what I hear is if you're going to do crazy things like that, the easiest way to avoid anything is just not to do them. But is that, is that the way to do it? I mean, that's not fun.

I don't have a strained bicep. I don't, I don't have a strained bicep. I had somebody had somebody busted up their ankle hiking.

You know, if you don't do those things, you don't get hurt. You know, one of my favorite quotes, which I will now probably misquote now that I'm on this video, is something to the effect of a ship is safest in harbor, but that's not what ships were made for. Right.

Yeah. And that's the truth. You know, it's always safe inside, but that's not what we were made to do.

So I'm not saying now go and skydive without a parachute and see what happens. But I'm the, I'm the ship that wants to sail out of the harbor. Right.

Would you do anything as crazy as Tom Cruise does in his Mission Impossible movies, like hanging on to the side of an airplane as it takes off? No, I would like to be at least one fifth as brave as Tom Cruise and probably one fifth as in the shape that he is in, because nobody does these kind of stunts at his age and this is dangerous. God bless him. God bless that guy.

I mean, I don't know how he's still doing it, but it's amazing. First of all, he's rich. So that helps.

You know, what we have to do is get out and stay in shape and make money. Yeah. It's easy to stay in shape when you're rich and you can hire the best dietitians, the, you know, the trainers and stuff.

And then I'm assuming that, yes, he does all those stunts himself, but I'm sure that he is able to put in all the precautions, many, many more precautions that a regular stunt double would get. I'm sure. I'm sure.

But that said, it still takes a certain kind of ability, just physical ability to even do that much. Right. So, you know, kudos to him.

I haven't seen his new movie, but I want to. And yeah, well, we'll talk when I'm his age in a couple of years and see if I can still do what I'm doing. All right.

Mm hmm. And we'll have to chat about that movie when it comes. Is it out? It is out.

OK. I thought part one was awesome. I haven't seen part two, but part two is three hours.

Wait a minute. It's two parts. Yeah.

This is part two. Oh, this movie is actually part two. Part one came out about two years ago or so, and it was great.

And it actually ended with, you know, part two coming. This is part two. All right.

I'm behind my last Tom Cruise movie was Maverick. Wow. Yes, that was OK.

A couple of years ago. And I heard they're coming out with a third of those. I'm glad that you just brought up Tom Cruise, because I was going to rip off my head and it's my right leg.

They do it because I'm not really Brad Grose. I'm Rob Ray. You're right.

Yeah. Just tell me why Salt Lake City, Rob. Tell me.

Exactly. So, yeah, I, uh, I think it's great. I mean, like I said, I love doing those outdoor things in the sports zone.

Am I jumping out of planes? No. But there's something between doing nothing and jumping out of planes. And that's sort of where I sit right in that area.

All right. Well, you're still young and healthy and working out. I have stopped working out.

So those days are over for me. But it's never too late to start. OK.

All right. We have gone off the path quite a bit there. Brad, thank you very much for like my four by four.

Yes. Thank you for coming back and doing this and making this work. And folks, again, this is the first recording that we did at PAX8, of course, with some afterthoughts.

And, of course, Bradley Grose with MSP terms. Go check it out if you have not and get your agreements in the cloud, make them accessible to your clients and put in all the safeguards, the rules and everything so that you can protect yourselves because times, they are a change. Yes, sir.

Well, thank you, Mark. Thank you for having me on again. And I look forward to part three of this.

Yes, we will do that. That's going to do it, folks. And be on the lookout for all of my interviews that were done at Pax8 Beyond.

Check them out. Get some great insight. We'll see you out there.

And until then. Holla!