Unlocking ASCII Spark Success - Erez Zevulunov (EP 923)

Hello friends, Uncle Marv here with another episode of the IT Business Podcast, once again recording live at ASCII EDGE, the final event of the year here in Philadelphia. And I'm joined by a new guest to the show, but he's not new to ASCII, Erez Zevulunov. Is that close? It's pretty close.

It's Erez Zevulunov. Okay. He is based out of Toronto, Canada, so made the trip down here.

Now the first question I'm going to ask you has nothing to do with tech or ASCII, but how cold was it when you left Toronto to come down here compared to what it is here? Not bad. Actually very similar. Really? Yeah.

We were pretty much almost the same temperature. Okay. Because I'm from Florida.

Oh, yeah. Florida is a whole different animal. But Philly and Toronto are pretty much the same, sort of like New York.

They're all relatively the same. Okay. Get ready for winter.

Nice. Winter. That's a horrible word.

Yeah. All right, so just to give people a little bit of idea, I know that you're up there in Canada. You've got experience, MIT Consulting, is that correct? That's correct.

And Telecom Corporation, or Yes Telecom. That's right. Telecom Corporation.

What's your MSP focus right now? Well, for the last couple of years, it was all around cybersecurity and building out our cybersecurity solutions. Okay. In the last year, it's been around building out our AI practice.

Okay. So we're big partners with Microsoft, we also have a relationship with Google, and there's a lot of inquiry about it. So we're trying to figure out what our offering is going to be next year.

We don't have experience building out Microsoft Studio, and there's no real products yet on the market, so it's kind of like you have to carve out something for yourself. Okay. And I think right now, we're in that infancy stage that we're trying to kind of come to the market with some solutions that most customers are going to be looking for.

So that's been a major focus that we've been working on in the last several months. Okay. Do you have devs on staff? No, we're more of a traditional sysadmin networking infrastructure type resources.

So most of our in-house resources are around cybersecurity. So switches, firewalls, routers, access points. All right.

I was asking because I know of somebody else who's trying to do the Studio stuff, but they have dev on staff. Correct. And was talking about how much work it is for that, so very interesting.

And that's a natural, from what I've seen, it's more of a natural segue for the devs team to get involved, whereas when you've been maintaining servers and firewalls for the last 15 years, it's a bit of a forklift operation to kind of transition to doing dev around Microsoft Studio. Okay. As we transition to ASCII, and I want to ask you a lot about ASCII Spark, let me ask, how long have you been a member of ASCII? Definitely north of 10 years now.

I would say maybe even pushing 15. Originally got involved with ASCII because I wanted to know more about the industry. I'm actually not a technician by trade.

So 20 years, almost 25 years ago when I started the company, it was just out of necessity. I was good in sales, started selling product, and then eventually got into managed services, and then I found out about ASCII. And so from that relationship, it had transitioned into managed services and got to see the whole MSP, MSSP business come through, most of it through ASCII.

And all the vendors sort of percolated ASCII before it even hit Disney. Right. Okay.

So you said something that just took me completely off course. You started your business not being a tech. That is absolutely the reverse of 99% of the people here.

So you started the business just to sell? Yeah, I came in from the management consulting industry. So I was actually more in the venture capital mergers and acquisitions during the dot-com era. My focus was in technology, but technology as a business management consultant, so I had no certifications, no Microsoft background, none of that.

And then when the market crashed in 2001, I was left basically unemployable for a while. And so I started helping companies acquire computers and infrastructure and basically... Like a broker type thing. Basically, that's what I was.

And then I was also project managing as part of that vertical. And then in 2005 is really when we started kind of becoming a business in real perspective. And in 2009, we actually transitioned to managed services as we would know it.

So I ask that because that's an interesting path. And I sometimes wonder, people that started from that side, why they wouldn't just stay? Because there's money to be had there without all the technical worries and stuff. So what was it that actually made you get that first tech on staff to help? Well, ironically, I knew people right away to help me deploy some of the projects that we were doing. 

So the guys that were doing the IT for the firm that I was working for, I actually started outsourcing them to actually do the work for me while I was moving the boxes and stuff like that. And then when I was at Disney events back then, Ingram, and it was actually Tech Data and there's several others at the time. And what was interesting was they started talking about the cloud and I would like to make references.

It's funny. So this product called Level Platforms came up on the planet. And ironically, Rob Ray was actually my account manager who sat in my office and told me, you're going to sign up and I'll try to use this, but you're going to sign up for this thing and you're going to make money.

And like, you know, this is Rob, you know, we're talking like almost now 15 to 20 years ago, sat me down and told me about Level Platforms and he got me on onto this thing and kind of showed me the ropes on it. Because again, I'm not in the industry. Right. 

And I think my business at the time was literally in a 500 square foot office with like three people in it. We had no idea what we were doing. And but that was the starting point of us becoming a managed service as to what we were doing.

Interesting. I, you know, I wonder about those early Rob Ray days, you know, touring around Canada, just, you know, walking into businesses and stuff. And so my first question is, how did you get Rob Ray in your space? Like, did he contact you or had you filled out a form looking for assistance? That was Ingram Micro.

Ingram Micro was a leader at the time. They had a program called Seismic and Seismic had picked up Level Platforms and he was the brand ambassador back then. Gotcha. 

Or channel manager back for Level Platforms out of Ottawa. We're talking 15, 2005, 2006. OK, so 20 years ago.

20 years ago now. Oh, geez. Yeah, it's that long ago.

Yeah. All right. I'd love to hear it.

Get those little nuggets out there. So I want to make sure that I do right by Ascii, because one of the reasons that we got you on the show was to talk about Ascii Spark. You are one of the Spark leaders leading the peer groups.

For those that are skipping other episodes where we've talked about Spark, it is the Ascii version of the peer group. It is free. If you're an Ascii member, they are geographically distinct.

So you're not having somebody that's down the road in your group. And for the most part, you are similar size, similar revenue. So you're talking with people that are going through the exact same path as you.

So that describes Spark. But tell me about your experience with getting started with Spark. And when did you become, did you start out as a leader or did you graduate to the leader? Yeah, so I believe Ben and Jerry and a few of the management team approached me as being one of the founders.

So I have been one of the founding Spark leaders from inception. It's going back now about five, six years ago now. Maybe it's a little bit longer.

Time flies, especially during the lockdowns. But yeah, I've had like several years prior to that involved in other peer groups. So I basically took a little bit of lessons learned out of that.

And fortunately, I was able to carry that over to our particular group, which really in the beginning, it was a hard start because a lot of people didn't have the right expectations. The reasons why they were there, they just kind of all got together and everybody had their own idea. Some people wanted to talk about products and people want to talk about services.

And so we kind of threw spaghetti on the wall. And the good thing now is that the group that we're in in the last 24 months, let's call it we've now congealed. We've kind of formed together.

We actually understand each other's businesses and we've gotten tremendous value because we're now leading the question about how can we all grow our business an extra million dollars next year. And so that's sort of our goal as a group, which has been tremendous for us because we're actually supporting each other because we're not in competing markets, right? Nobody's in their backyards. And so we're just out there helping each other, knowing that we're not really in competition.

And if anything, if I'm benefiting from this deployment or this decision, chances are they're all going to get the same benefit. Right. You mentioned something that is a I don't want to say it's a problem.

That's not the right way to look at it. But yeah, when members first get together, regardless of the peer group, there's always that initial, you know, concept of are we all here for the same reason? And obviously not. We all have different goals for our businesses, both personally and professionally.

But one of the things I think that really has made the Spark Groups great is that once you do get that footing and everybody starts realizing that, look, we're here to help each other, that's where things really start to take off. You start being open with the questions that you're asking and with the help that you need and stuff. What kind of stands out to you as some of the big, you know, wins that have happened in Spark, you know, either by you or one of your members? Anything stand out? There's been a lot, actually, you know, the bigger you get as an MSP for us has been, you know, every decision is worth almost 100 to half a million dollars in an investment between time, effort, money, resources that you would invest.

You know, obviously, when you're a smaller MSP, every decision potentially is your last dollar. But for us, it's large investments. So what we've done now is every product selection that we are anticipating to transition to, because there's always an evolution like AI products and RMM tools and PSA tools.

So what we're doing now is we table various options that we're all considering. And what we do is we divide and conquer. So, OK, I'm going to try out this cybersecurity tool.

I'm going to try this one and you try that one. These are the top three or four picks. And let's all take a hack at it.

And before we actually make a decision, we'll get our respective companies to try them out, negotiate and then come back and then do like a pro and con or plus minus on each one. And then one, usually one of the members will even volunteer to roll it out for like a three month trial and say, OK, this is working out amazing. I think we made the right decision.

And then the rest of the group will actually jump on it. OK, I'll use that time to market. I was going to ask that.

So I'm going to assume that I'm a smaller MSP than you. And in the peer groups that I've been involved with, we kind of all help each other choose the products. And in some sense, we all kind of end up choosing the same one because we understand each other and we kind of help model our business.

It's not 100 percent the same, but it kind of helps when somebody's had success. We want to just follow in that same path. Correct. 

At your size, do you find that even though you talked about everybody, you know, will try a different product, but you do you find that all of you kind of standardize in the same way? Again, you're never going to get the same exact shoe or glove for every MSP, right? Everybody's got their own little nuances and stuff like that. So, you know, when you look at it, fundamentally, most MSPs will have, you know, a salad. I want to call it a salad.

There's going to be some core ingredients like everyone's using Microsoft or Google. Everyone's you know, so you've got your ecosystem, you've got your managed services help desk and then your selective call it toppings and ingredients are going to be your, you know, which ERP and I'm sorry, you know, MDR solution and what our email solution, what backup solution. So those are your secret sauces, let's call it that, or your secret ingredients.

And that, you know, becomes part of your fabric. And so you're not always going to agree on it. But I find that, you know, what ends up happening is as you mature from an MSP or maybe a solopreneur to a small business to a larger one, you're going to find the products that meet your market and your client.

And I think that that's a big mistake that a lot of smaller MSPs take on is that, you know, I'm a solopreneur, I'm a small business. I'm trying to offer enterprise solutions. But are you servicing an enterprise? You know, are they going to want to spend, you know, 100 to 300 dollars a month on managed services where you're a solopreneur or a small business? Chances are maybe one or two or a small percentage of your clients are going to want to do that, where the bulk of your clients are assuming I'm coming to you as a small business. 

I'm looking for a small business solution, not at three, four hundred dollars an endpoint. So, you know, and the beauty of ASCII is that 80 percent of the due diligence around small business is already been vetted because most of the partners that come to the table here are geared for SMB mid-market. So you're not even having to go out there and try to find Apollo Alto enterprise level security solution or product solution, which is enterprise grade.

And so I start here usually even at my size and I'm looking at these going, OK, how are these products going to impact my business? And usually, interestingly enough, they get rolled out all the way across till you hit enterprise. So there's a bit of a two edge on that question. One is almost every MSP has the same stock.

Usually there's two, three favorites in your market space or in your market size. And at the end of the day, you need to know your clients best and that most people disassociate from what they want to achieve and what they've been told to do versus what their customer and their markets willing to pay for or what they need. And I am in that.

That's my lane, that hybrid lane where I do have a couple of customers where they're going to pay more for the services because they need them. They're larger and they need that, you know, whether it's security or, you know, secure remote access or whatever. And then I've got customers that are, you know, they're just super small.

I mean, I've got to protect them. Yes. But I can't protect, you know, a small business with an enterprise product.

It's overkill to some degree. So I'm glad you said that because, you know, we hear a lot, you know, everybody can build 300 an end point. I'm like, no, we can't.

No, no, I am not the believer of a lot of the call it mass marketing stuff that I hear out there. And I can tell you right now the trend on some of the bigger MSPs are starting to see that that one shoe fits all or nothing model of three to five hundred dollars an end point is not flying anymore. So having a Chevy Cadillac option, you know, and maybe a Rolls Royce add on is not a bad thing to do.

And, you know, at the end of the day, it's not about efficiencies because you can still choose the same product. So if you're with, for example, let's just use Sentinel one. They have multiple offerings from control to complete to now their new lighthouse offering. 

Like you can buy fractions of their solution stack and, you know, threat down. You know, there's a whole bunch of them over here that are that are going to give you that option where you can start with smaller bundles and move your way up to like the entire ecosystem. Yeah. 

Black Point Cyber is doing that. They just offered their essentials product. A good thing. 

And let me make one clarification, folks. I'm not telling you not to charge three hundred dollars an end point because there are places where that makes perfect sense. So don't come at me because I know somebody.

Well, you know, if you can charge it and the customer is happy to. But again, you're delivering a service at that caliber. Right. 

We are seeing now, for example, a major shift where customers are like, well, I want to buy the Microsoft ecosystem and I'm already buying small business premium. And I don't want to have an extra EDR. I'm just going to have an MDR.

So I think like Huntress and a few others, even ThreatLocker now have an MDR for Windows Defender. And I can tell you right now, there are some big players out there like hundred million dollar MSPs that that's their stack. They're not using CrowdStrike or Sentinel one.

They're using the Microsoft with their MDR. Yeah. And you mentioned ThreatLocker.

That is a product that I've jumped on, probably going on two years now. Yeah. And at my size, people were like, you're too small to use ThreatLocker.

And I'm like, what are you talking about? And to be honest, I love it. I've had no pushback from clients and I'm using it on some pretty small clients. And if you if you if you embrace the no trust, you know, ecosystem.

Sure. It works. Yeah. 

But again, they've also evolved their pricing structure from two years ago. Because I looked at them, they've evolved their pricing structure. They've made it more flexible where before it was like almost like one or two options.

Right. It was just it was it was here's your bundle. Yes. 

And that was more granular. And they will protect a Microsoft ecosystem standalone. And so you do not need to take their entire package to be a ThreatLocker customer.

So this is the evolution of our industry, which is the biggest challenge is how do you make the next decision? Right. And how do you how does that impact all your business? So just like in your business, it's it was the right decision. Now, the question is, is it going to be the right decision when the AI hits the market? That's a whole other discussion.

Yeah, we can do another episode about that whenever you want. I was going to say, we really went off course there. But I appreciate that. 

I love this is what happens when you guys get together, here at an event like ASCII, you can sit, have these discussions. You know, yeah, we can have them at every conference. But I think ASCII has done a real good job of having that open atmosphere where there is, you know, no fear, no shame or anything like that.

So it's great. Let me ask one more question about Spark just to make sure, you know, ASCII is happy with me. Is there anything that you would say to either an existing ASCII member that is not a member of Spark or somebody that is looking, you know, from the outside to get involved with Spark and encourage them to become a member to do so? Well, that's a long list.

And I can tell you right now, I've got about a million to ten million dollars  worth of reasons. So number one is it's free. So if you're not even trying out a group, you're missing out.

If you've never been in a peer group, you need to be involved in one, because being in a room with like-minded business owners across the country and being able to collaborate in a non-competitive environment, nobody that is in Spark has got something proprietary. We're all selling a solution stack that's available on the shelf. So if you're collaborating, you're growing quicker.

Second, knowledge trading is the fastest way to adopt any sort of industry or being able to be a leader in your market. So why would you try to learn it on your own? Being in a group of 10, 15 entrepreneurs that are trying to do the exact same thing as you do and you're meeting once every two weeks to once a month, depending on your group, is going to be the best hour of your investment for the month, because you will learn ten times more than you start to read online or ask ChatGPT what the next thing I got to do. Finally, I can tell you that most members that are in the right group and ask the right questions tend to grow.

And in all cases in our group right now, most members in my chapter are growing at an average of 5 to 15% year over year. And that can be very significant. And that's our goal.

We all have actually outlined our goal that we're going to hit 10 million and all of us actually want to hit 10 million in revenue in the next two years. So that's our goal. And we're all kind of pushing each other to the finish line.

And, you know, if you're at a half a million dollars in revenue and you say, hey, I want to aspire to a million. Well, if you're in a room full of people that are in the same half million dollar boat and you all want to get to the shore with a million dollar jackpot, hey, guess what? You're going to row together much better than you rowing up by yourself with an oar. Absolutely.

So that's that to me is one of the best analogies I can say. And I would say that it's easier to do it with a team than doing it by yourself. And it's free.

It's free. So you cannot ask for a better deal because any other peer group I know out there is costing you money. Right. 

Absolutely. Well, there you have it, folks. I'm going to leave it at that because that was well explained.

I don't need to add to it. But Aris Z, I'm going to not try to butcher your name again. MIT Consulting out of Toronto.

I will have his contact information. If you're an ASCII member, you have seen him around and feel free to say hello. But Aris, thank you very much.

Thank you. That's going to do it, folks. And we're going to finish off here soon from the ASCII Edge, the final event of the year, the ASCII Cup.

Are you dressing up tonight? Unfortunately, I left my boxing gloves in Toronto. All right. We will see everybody later and talk to you soon.

Holla. Thank you.